Revelation 2 - Are the Jews God's Chosen People?

The Book of Revelation – Are the Jews God’s Chosen People? (2 of 22)

ABOUT EPISODE 2:

What does the Bible say about the Jews who live in modern day Israel? This question is answered in Revelation 2 - the second episode of “The Book of Revelation” series. This 22 hour series is directed and produced by Paul Wittenberger (After The Tribulation and New World Order Bible Versions), and Preached by Pastor Steven L. Anderson, Pastor at Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona.

This episode confronts the controversy surrounding the notion today that the Jews of modern day Israel are God’s Chosen People. See for yourself if the Jews today are anything like the Old Testament Jews. Follow along in your King James Bible and see for yourself what the scriptures have to say. Set aside pre-conceived ideas of the world, and let the truth be revealed.

It also covers topics such as:

· The First Works
· Dispensationalism
· The Universal Church
· The Antichrist and other antichrists
· The Feasts of the Lord
· Daniel’s 70th Week
· The Role of Women in the Church
· Ruling and Reigning with Christ

So grab your King James Bible and enjoy chapter 2 of “The Book of Revelation”.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3

KEY TOPICS/KEYWORDS:

7 Churches, False Apostles, Church of Ephesus, First Love, Soul Winning, Dispensations, Universal Church, Overcoming the World, Second Death, Tree of Life, Paradise, The Three Heavens, Synagogue of Satan, Crown of Life, Killed for the Cause of Christ, Cast into Prison for the Cause of Christ, Circumcision, Anti-Christ and Anti-Christs, Judeo-Christianity, Zionism, God’s Wrath, Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, 10 days Tribulation, The Feasts of The Lord, Hebrew Calender, Blowing of Trumpets, Daniel’s 70th Week, Abomination of Desolation, The Trumpet of Jubilee, The Rapture, The Great Tribulation, White Stone, Women Teaching, Christians repenting of their deeds, Meaning of the word ‘Tribulation’, Depths of Satan, Reigning with Christ, He that hath an ear,

BIBLE VERSES DISCUSSED:

Revelation 2:1-29, Hebrews 2:12, Psalms 22:22, Matthew 24:12, 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 1:5, Genesis 3:22-24, Revelation 22:1-5, 2 Corinthians 12:4, Romans 2:28-29, Philippians 3:3, 1 John 2:18/22, John 1:41, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, John 8:44, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 7:14, 2 Timothy 3:12, Leviticus 23:4/24-27/9, Matthew 13:39,

Numbers 10:9, Numbers 31:6, Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15/21, Romans 8:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:54, Daniel 12:12, Revelation 20:14-15, 1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:34, Hebrews 12:6, Revelation 22:16, 1 Corinthians 10:11

RUNNING TIME: 113 min

Revelation 1 - Will there be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

The Book of Revelation - Will There be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? (1 of 22)

ABOUT EPISODE 1:

What does the Bible say about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?  This question is answered in Revelation 1 - the pilot episode of “The Book Of Revelation” series.  This 22 hour series is directed and produced by Paul Wittenberger (After The Tribulation and New World Order Bible Versions), and preached by Steven L. Anderson, the pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona.

This episode delves right into the most debated subject in the word of God, the second coming of Jesus Christ.  It will prove that Jesus Christ is indeed coming back, but not until after the Tribulation. 

It also covers topics such as:

•    What the Return of Christ will look like
•    Why Christ cannot return at any moment
•    How the inspiration of the King James Bible is proven in Revelation
•    Tribulation prophesied for all followers of Christ
•    Why God included the book of Revelation in the Bible
•    The Gospel

So grab your King James Bible and enjoy chapter 1 of “The Book of Revelation."

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thessalonians 2:3

KEY TOPICS/KEYWORDS:
The Book of Revelation, Chapter 1, Revelation 1, Rapture, 7 Stars, 7 Golden Candlesticks, Stem of Jesse, Great Tribulation, Sun and Moon Darkened, Great Earthquake, Distress of Nations, Jesus Ascension and Decent from Heaven, Pre-tribulation rapture fraud, Trump of God, Comforting One Another with the Resurrection, Parable of the Fig Tree, Great Apostasy (falling away), Jesus Prophesying His Return, Warnings against tampering with God’s Word, Believers Seeing The Signs of the Coming of Christ, Sun Black and Moon as blood, 7 Spirits, Key Verse 7, 7 Churches, Appearance of the Son of Man, Jesus has the Keys of Hell and Death, The Word of God the Two-edged Sword,

BIBLE VERSES DISCUSSED:
Revelation 1:1-20, 1 Cor 2:14, Isaiah 11:1, Matt 24:21, Matt 24:29-30, Luke 21:25-27, Acts 1, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:32-34, Matthew 13:20-21, Mark 13:24-28, Revelation 22:18-19, 1 Thess 5:1-2, Revelation 6:12-13

RUNNING TIME:
58 min

New Documentary - MARCHING TO ZION

Paul Wittenberger and Steven L Anderson have just finished filming their latest documentary MARCHING TO ZION. We are hoping to have this film out by December 2014. This film is going to be awesome! People will be shocked and blown away by the information in this film. Topics covered include:

- The history of the Jews from A.D. 70 until today including the founding of the state of Israel
- Scriptural evidence that the Jews are no longer God's chosen people
- Rabbinical Judaism's Messiah revealed as the Antichrist
- Blasphemous teachings of the Talmud and Kabbalah
- Modern DNA evidence of the Jews' ancestry
- Proof that Christian Zionism is a modern phenomenon
- Darby, Scofield, and Larkin Exposed

The film will feature:

- Steven L Anderson, pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, AZ
- Texe Marrs, author and founder of Power of Prophecy Ministries, Austin, TX
- Leo Abrami, Ecumenical Jewish Rabbi
- Reuven Mann, Orthodox Jewish Rabbi
- Irwin Wiener, Reform Jewish Rabbi
- Jeffrey Schesnol, Humanist Jewish Congregation Leader
- Matt Furse, pastor of Mountainview Baptist Church in Custer, SD
- Tim Coleman, pastor of 35th Avenue Baptist Church in Phoenix, AZ
- Roger Jimenez, pastor of Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento, CA
- Donnie Romero, pastor of Stedfast Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX
- David Berzins, pastor of Word of Truth Baptist Church in Prescott Valley, AZ
- Paul Wittenberger, director and producer based in Los Angeles, CA 

Please donate to this project if you believe in what we are doing. The more money we can raise, the sooner the movie will be released!

"Jesus-is-Savior.com" Attacks our Film "After the Tribulation

There is an article on the website www.jesus-is-savior.com attacking our film After the Tribulation, which came out last December and has been viewed online over 1.3 million times so far (if you add up the view counts of the several versions uploaded to YouTube). Here are a few excerpts from the article:

"In the film, Dr. Kent Hovind denounces the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Kent Hovind is wrong about a Young Earth and he's wrong about the Rapture. The Bible teaches an Old Earth. Dinosaurs never co-existed amongst mankind."

This should tell you everything you need to know about David Stewart, the man behind the website jesus-is-savior.com. He believes that the earth is billions of years old! Instead of the Bible being his final authority, he twists the words of the Bible to make them match up with the "science falsely so-called" of our day.

"By itself, Matthew 24 would seem to indicate a Post-Tribulation Rapture, but if you study the Greek, it teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture."

 You should always beware of any doctrine that requires you to "go back to the Greek" in order to understand it. Using a foreign language that most people do not understand is always a good way to deceive people since most people will have no idea whether or not what you are saying is true. In another article on his website, he "goes back to the Hebrew" to change what the Bible says in Genesis 1:2 in order to promote his belief that the world is billions of years old. He says that the "and" at the beginning of verse 2 is actually "but" in the original Hebrew. In reality, the Hebrew word used for "and" at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 is the same Hebrew word used for "and" that begins 29 of the 31 verses in Genesis 1. The King James Version is right, and David Stewart, who obviously doesn't know any Hebrew, is just repeating a lie that he heard from someone else.

"Pastor Anderson claims that there's not one verse anywhere in the Bible which teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. As I showed you earlier, there are indeed Scriptures in the Bible from which this important doctrine is inferred."

Here, Stewart is basically admitting that there is not one verse in the Bible that teaches the pre-tribulation rapture. It is a doctrine that has to be "inferred" from certain scriptures. The word "infer" means to hint, imply, or suggest. We should always base what we believe about major Biblical doctrines on what the Bible clearly states, not what we think that the Bible may be implying.

"Watch Steven Anderson's video AFTER THE TRIBULATION and you'll notice that he TOTALLY avoids the Old Testament, because he hasn't studied."

Actually, we just didn't have time to go into the Old Testament because the movie is less than two hours long, and it took long enough to go through the most important New Testament scriptures. It should be obvious that the New Testament scriptures on the second coming of Jesus Christ are more clear than the Old Testament.

He claims I avoid the Old Testament because "I haven't studied." I guess he isn't aware of the 22 Hour Revelation series that was released a few months ago which covers hundreds of Old Testament scriptures and deals with ALL of the subjects he accuses me of avoiding in this article. There is only so much that can be covered in a movie that is less than 2 hours long!

"I am quite surprised how shallow Pastor Anderson's presentation is, totally disregarding the entire Old Testament."

 Apparently, Stewart thinks that examining scores of New Testament scriptures is "shallow." Does he think that the Old Testament is somehow deeper than the New Testament? I defy anyone to find a Bible prophecy film that uses more Bible verses in less than 2 hours. However, since they all come from the New Testament, the film is accused of being "shallow."

If you need any more evidence of how ridiculous David Stewart's views on Bible prophecy are, click here for his #1 most ridiculous argument for a pre-tribulation rapture. It provides more evidence of his Greek/Hebrew ignorance, even as he abuses these languages to pervert what the KJV clearly and accurately states.

Revelation 1 is now online!

Every Monday, a new chapter will be released until all 22 are online. DVDs will ship in August for those who order the entire 5 Disc, 22 Hour box set. Please share these videos with everyone you know. The time is at hand!

There has never been a time when it was more necessary to read and understand the Book of Revelation than right now. Each day brings us closer to what the Bible calls "the end of the world." Warfare, famines, disease, natural disasters, and persecution of Christians are coming, but do you know what to expect? Are you aware of Satan's plans for a global government and new world order? Many today are in the dark about these events when the answers are all in the Bible.

In this scripture-packed series, Pastor Steven L Anderson takes you verse-by-verse through the Book of Revelation, explaining every line and leaving no stone unturned. Brought to you by film-maker Paul Wittenberger, director and producer of AFTER THE TRIBULATION, these 22 sermons will cut through the disinformation and false doctrine and expose solid biblical truth. By the end of this series, you will have a clear understanding of every chapter in the Book of Revelation.

Herb Evans tries to challenge "After the Tribulation" Film

Here is a link to watch the film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmZHDb_sP8

Here is the exchange with Herb Evans: 

Hi Herb,

Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation:

^{Matthew 24:21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

^{Matthew 24:29} Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5.
1. the trumpet sounds
2. Jesus comes in the clouds
3. the elect are gathered unto him
Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31.
Sincerely,

Pastor Steven L Anderson

Steve, Thank you for your assumption that your proof texts prove the rapture to be post trib, which i do not find to be true. I have annotated emphacized each of your proof texts from my standpoint. -- Herb Evans

 

        On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:27 -0700 Steven Anderson <sanderson1611@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Herb,
        Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation: -- S.A.

        ^{Matthew 24:21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -- SA

        Your proof texts refers to the GREAT tribulation and is tied in with the abomination of desolation and concerns itself with the temple and those in Judea that observe the Sabbath day 24:16, 20, 21. There is nothing here that fixes the rapture of the church saints in this time frame. All you prove is that the GREAT tribulation happens here. -- Herb Evans

        ^{Matthew 24:29} Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: -- SA        Pre tribbers also believe that there are disturbances in the  sun, moon, and stars after the 3 1/2 year GREAT tribulation, namely, the second half of the seven year tribulation. Nothing is new here nor adds to or changes my view. Nothing here proves that the rapture of the church saints occurs in this time frame. -- Herb Evans
³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -- SA        Post tribbers see the rapture and the coming in power and glory as one coming. Pre tribbers see the rapture as one coming in the clouds and another coming later in power and glory where Jesus touches down on the earth (Mount of Olives). You have not proved the one coming theory nor disproved the two coming claim in these verses. -- Herb Evans
³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- SA
        In your video, you go to a great deal of trouble to prove where pre tribbers cannot find the word "tribulation." May I ask you where the word "rapture" is here? Moreover, may I ask you if "gather" must mean "rapture"everywhere the word "gather" is used? May I also ask you to find the word church in this passage and for that matter, find it in the Book of Revelation, from chapter 4 to the end.
        You also go a great deal of trouble, in your video,  trying to prove that this is not the Jewish elect  but rather all the elect. Of course, your assumption neglects the fact that those in Judea who keep the Sabbath are addressed (see above). May I also point out that these elect are gathered from the four winds as opposed to being gathered from their graves. -- Herb Evans
        In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. -- SA
        I beg to differ with you. The two accounts are not the same.-- Herb Evans
        1 Thess 4:13 - 18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
        1. the trumpet sounds -- SA
        In Matthew, that is true, but in Thessalonians, it is not an angel trumping as in Matthew and Revelation but rather is the trump of God. Moreover, there is no shout or voice of an archangel in Matthew. -- Herb Evans
        2. Jesus comes in the clouds -- SA
        In Mathew, this is true, but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians; it says that we shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds and meet THE LORD IN THE AIR. -- Herb Evans
        3. the elect are gathered unto him -- SA
        To be sure, there is a gathering of these elect but not a rapture to heaven. But the coming in glory and power and Armageddon precedes this gathering
        Mat 24:27 - 28  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 
        After Armageddon and  the parables, we find the purpose of the Matt 24 gathering by reading  Matthew 25:31 - 46 where we find the judgment of the nations, namely the sheep and the goats.
        Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
        Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson
        It is not obvious to me what you have or do not have with the exception of what you posted, none of which establishes your post trib rapture idea. It does show that you are able to erroneously mix and mismatch passages that do not belong together. -- Herb Evans

Hi Herb,

I will address each of your paragraphs:

1a. Matthew 24:16 is giving specific instructions to them that will be in Judaea at that time. That is not to say that the entire chapter is written only to them which are in Judaea. "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" - Matt 24:16 The fact that he singles out those that be in Judaea in this verse proves that he is speaking to other people also in the rest of the chapter. Furthermore, the parallel passage in Mark 13 explicitly tells us who the chapter is written to:

^{Mark 13:37} And what I say unto you I say unto ALL, Watch.
Why would God put this at the end of a chapter that is only written to the Jews?

1b. Matthew 24:20 is saying to pray that your flight be not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day since both of those conditions will make flight more difficult. This is simply because business shuts down on the sabbath day and fleeing to the mountains is more difficult in cold weather. He is not writing to people who observe the sabbath! He is not saying, "Pray that your flight is not on the sabbath day because then you will have to stop and rest to observe the sabbath." That would be ridiculous. He is saying that if you are in a part of the world where the sabbath is observed, it will make flight more difficult on that day.

2. You are claiming here that according to pre-tribbers the sun and moon will be darkened and that the stars will fall at the end of the 7 years. However, that does NOT line up with what the book of Revelation teaches. The Book of Revelation teaches that the sun and moon will be darkened at the opening of the sixth seal which is LONG before the end of the 7 years. According to my post-trib, pre-wrath view, the sun and moon are darkened after the tribulation (seals 1-6) but before God's wrath is poured out (God's wrath = 7 trumpets and 7 vials). I can easily demonstrate the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling after the seals but before the trumpets and vials. This proves that the trumpets and vials are NOT part of the tribulation since they come after the sun and moon are darkened which comes after the tribulation. Here are the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in Revelation:

^{Revelation 6:12} And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ^{Revelation 6:13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
This is BEFORE the trumpets or vials. This is NOT at the end of the 7 years. Show me where these events happen at the end of the 7 years in Revelation.
3a. Coming in clouds = coming in glory. In the Bible, God's glory is represented by clouds MANY times. Read all of the following verses and then tell me that when he comes in the clouds he is not coming in glory:

1. Exodus 16:10
   And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
   
   
2. Exodus 24:16
   And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
   
   
3. Exodus 40:34
   Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
   
   
4. Exodus 40:35
   And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
   
   
5. Numbers 16:42
   And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.
   
   
6. 1 Kings 8:11
   So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
   
   
7. 2 Chronicles 5:14
   So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
   
   
8. Isaiah 4:5
   And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
   
   
9. Ezekiel 1:28
   As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
   
   
10. Ezekiel 10:4
    Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.
    
    
11. Matthew 24:30
    
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    
    
12. Mark 13:26
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    
    
13. Luke 21:27
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Give one shred of evidence that when he comes in the clouds, his glory will be absent.
3b. I don't believe in a "one coming theory." He comes in the clouds (post-trib, pre-wrath), then after the trumpets and vials he returns on a white horse in Revelation 19 where he actually touches down. Those are two separate events. Pre-tribbers claim that Matthew 24 is referring to the Revelation 19 horseback event. However, Rev 19 looks NOTHING like Matthew 24. Rev 19 has no clouds, no trumpet, and no elect gathered. 1 Thess 4 has all of the above because 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24 are dealing with the same event. That is why 1 Thess 5:2 links the timing of the rapture with the timing of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is characterized by the sun and moon being darkened. That puts Matthew 24 in perfect harmony with 1 Thess 4-5.

4a. I am not looking for the word "church" in this passage because I do not subscribe to the doctrine of a universal church.
4b. I did not "try" to prove that the term "elect" is not referring to the Jews in the film: I succeeded in proving that in the film. Every mention of "the elect" in the New Testament proves my point. "The elect" is referring to the saved every time it is used.
5a. You said, "...but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians." Yes, it does:
1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

There he said that he is COMING.
^{1 Thessalonians4:17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There it says that he is in the clouds. Therefore, he is coming in the clouds. Not that complicated.
5b. Your theory about the timing of the events of Matthew 24 corresponding to Armageddon and the end of the 7 years has already been proven completely false in point 2. 

Sincerely,
Pastor Steven L Anderson 

Hi Herb, I will address each of your paragraphs:

1a. Matthew 24:16 is giving specific instructions to them that will be in Judaea at that time. SA

Nice equivocation with no basis in fact or scripture. You are just saying something just to say something. Would you accept such an excuse put to your comments? – Herb Evans

That is not to say that the entire chapter is written only to them which are in Judaea. SA

Well, are we going to argue from silence now? – Herb Evans            "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" - Matt 24:16

The fact that he singles out those that be in Judaea in this verse proves that he is speaking to other people also in the rest of the chapter. SA

I am very interested in finding out your standard of proof for such a statement. Would you accept this reply as a reply to your comments? -- Herb Evans

Furthermore, the parallel passage in Mark 13 explicitly tells us who the chapter is written to:
                    ^{Mark 13:37} And what I say unto you I say unto ALL, Watch. Why would God put this at the end of a chapter that is only written to the Jews? SA
            Parallel passage? Without parallel parables? Without parallel admonitions. Forgive me if I cannot accept your desperate mixing and matching unrelated to my challenges. Conveniently switching from Matthew to Mark will not get you off the hook here. Mark 13 admonishes all in every age to watch. Obviously, God meant for all to watch. – Herb Evans

1b. Matthew 24:20 is saying to pray that your flight be not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day since both of those conditions will make flight more difficult. This is simply because business shuts down on the sabbath day and fleeing to the mountains is more difficult in cold weather. He is not writing to people who observe the sabbath! He is not saying, "Pray that your flight is not on the sabbath day because then you will have to stop and rest to observe the sabbath." That would be ridiculous. He is saying that if you are in a part of the world where the sabbath is observed, it will make flight more difficult on that day.

The only thing that is ridiculous is someone trying to squirm out of the consequences of his own proof text with lame excuses like this. My emphasis was not on winter but on the Sabbath. Nevertheless, leaving without one’s clothes could be a consideration in winter. Whose business shuts down on the Sabbath day and why? You cannot bear to admit that these are Jews, can you? You also ignore the abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place. Could that be the Jewish temple? Will you continue this discussion making things up as you go? – Herb Evans

2. You are claiming here that according to pre-tribbers the sun and moon will be darkened and that the stars will fall at the end of the 7 years. JA

I am claiming that according to Matthew 25:29 and Mark 13:24 that the sun, moon, stars events occur immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Mar 13:24 – 27 But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. – Herb Evans

However, that does NOT line up with what the book of Revelation teaches. The Book of Revelation teaches that the sun and moon will be darkened at the opening of the sixth seal which is LONG before the end of the 7 years. SA

According to my post-trib, pre-wrath view, the sun and moon are darkened after the tribulation (seals 1-6) but before God's wrath is poured out (God's wrath = 7 trumpets and 7 vials). I can easily demonstrate the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling after the seals but before the trumpets and vials. This proves that the trumpets and vials are NOT part of the tribulation since they come after the sun and moon are darkened which comes after the tribulation. Here are the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in Revelation:
            Could it really be that it does not line up with what you teach that Revelation teaches? It seems that you think that Revelation is a serial only treatise and discount the possibility that there are overlapping parallel accounts in the seal, vial, and trumpet accounts. Arguing in a circle does not prove anything. – Herb Evans

^{Revelation 6:12} And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

^{Revelation 6:13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is BEFORE the trumpets or vials. This is NOT at the end of the 7 years. Show me where these events happen at the end of the 7 years in Revelation. SA

Many pre tribs count the last seals as the end of the tribulation including myself. Further accounts of the tribulation under the vials and the trumpets are repeats with various other different events supplied. The ends of the seals, vials, and trumpets have similar events that we see as parallels and you see serially. There is no common ground with my view and your dogmatic assertions. – Herb Evans

3a. Coming in clouds = coming in glory. In the Bible, God's glory is represented by clouds MANY times. Read all of the following verses and then tell me that when he comes in the clouds he is not coming in glory:

1.               Exodus 16:10
And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

2.               Exodus 24:16
And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

3.               Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

4.               Exodus 40:35
And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

5.               Numbers 16:42
And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.

6.               1 Kings 8:11
So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

7.               2 Chronicles 5:14
So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

8.               Isaiah 4:5
And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

9.               Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

10.            Ezekiel 10:4
Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.

11.            Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

12.            Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

13.            Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Give one shred of evidence that when he comes in the clouds, his glory will be absent.

I am amazed at your dogmatic interpretation by terminology association. Why anyone takes you seriously is equally amazing.  There is no power and great glory in 1 Thess 4. And He does not come in the clouds in 1 Thess 4. We are caught up with Him in the clouds there. Clearly, you use similarities of terminology to piece together and force your misapplied theories. Luke 21:27 is a snare and not a rapture (21:35). It is also judgment (stand before the Son of man - 21:36). Matt 24:30 hardly has the saved in mind in those that mourn. -- Herb Evans

3b. I don't believe in a "one coming theory." He comes in the clouds (post-trib, pre-wrath), then after the trumpets and vials he returns on a white horse in Revelation 19 where he actually touches down. Those are two separate events.

Well, let me correct it and say that you believe in a simultaneous combined rapture and coming in power and glory, whereas I believe in a separate rapture separate from the coming in power and glory. – Herb Evans

Pre-tribbers claim that Matthew 24 is referring to the Revelation 19 horseback event. However, Rev 19 looks NOTHING like Matthew 24. Rev 19 has no clouds, no trumpet, and no elect gathered.

Well, sure, I also claim that. He come back to make war in Revelation 19 AFTER the wedding and the marriage supper of the lamb 19:7, 8. Horseback war and catching folks up in a cloud do not have much in common. Why mix different events of the same event as one identical event.

Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

1 Thess 4 has all of the above because 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24 are dealing with the same event.

You saying it does not make it so. – Herb Evans

That is why 1 Thess 5:2 links the timing of the rapture with the timing of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is characterized by the sun and moon being darkened. That puts Matthew 24 in perfect harmony with 1 Thess 4-5.

1 Thess 5 is in perfect harmony with Matt 24’s power and glory but is not in harmony with 1 Thess 4. In 1 Thess 4 there is an consolation and comfort. 1 Thess 5 is a warning of punishment. – Herb Evans

4a. I am not looking for the word "church" in this passage because I do not subscribe to the doctrine of a universal church.

I am a local church only and do not believe in any universal church, nevertheless I do not believe the church, whatever your theory, goes through any part of the tribulation. I support this by the fact that the word “CHURCH” is not used in the context of the tribulation in Matthew 24 or Rev 4 to the end. However, Israel in Matthew 24 and Revelation 4 to the end is used in the context of the tribulation. – Herb Evans

4b. I did not "try" to prove that the term "elect" is not referring to the Jews in the film: I succeeded in proving that in the film. Every mention of "the elect" in the New Testament proves my point. "The elect" is referring to the saved every time it is used.

Perhaps, I misinterpreted what you said. Still, there is a difference with elect Israel, elect Jesus, and the elect saved. You are not clear as to who specifically is referred to in Matt 24; so tell us, are those in Judea Jews or Gentiles? – Herb Evans5a. You said, "...but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians." Yes, it does: SA

No it doesn’t, unless you piece together the phrases to fit your erroneous view. – Herb Evans

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. There he said that he is COMING. SA

No, it says that we which are alive unto the coming of the Lord. Bothe the rapture and second coming are “comings.”– Herb Evans

^{1 Thessalonians4:17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There it says that he is in the clouds. Therefore, he is coming in the clouds. Not that complicated. SA

No! It says we shall be caught up with the others resurrected to meet the Lord in the air and not the clouds. You’re mixing and matching phrases and piecing them together to arrive at your manipulated outcome is a worst case Bible exegesis that is really an eisegesis. – Herb Evans

5b. Your theory about the timing of the events of Matthew 24 corresponding to Armageddon and the end of the 7 years has already been proven completely false in point 2. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson

Since you do not elaborate how, I cannot dignify your charge with a response. Nevertheless, all you have been giving me is doctrine by inference and innuendo. – Herb Evans

___________________________________________________________________________

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 4:04 PM, <herbevans@juno.com> wrote:

        Steve, Thank you for your assumption that your proof texts prove the rapture to be post trib, which i do not find to be true. I have annotated emphacized each of your proof texts from my standpoint. -- Herb Evans

        On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:27 -0700 Steven Anderson writes:

Hi Herb,
        Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation: -- S.A.

        ^{Matthew 24:21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -- SA

        Your proof texts refers to the GREAT tribulation and is tied in with the abomination of desolation and concerns itself with the temple and those in Judea that observe the Sabbath day 24:16, 20, 21. There is nothing here that fixes the rapture of the church saints in this time frame. All you prove is that the GREAT tribulation happens here. -- Herb Evans

        ^{Matthew 24:29} Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: -- SA        Pre tribbers also believe that there are disturbances in the  sun, moon, and stars after the 3 1/2 year GREAT tribulation, namely, the second half of the seven year tribulation. Nothing is new here nor adds to or changes my view. Nothing here proves that the rapture of the church saints occurs in this time frame. -- Herb Evans
³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -- SA        Post tribbers see the rapture and the coming in power and glory as one coming. Pre tribbers see the rapture as one coming in the clouds and another coming later in power and glory where Jesus touches down on the earth (Mount of Olives). You have not proved the one coming theory nor disproved the two coming claim in these verses. -- Herb Evans
³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- SA
        In your video, you go to a great deal of trouble to prove where pre tribbers cannot find the word "tribulation." May I ask you where the word "rapture" is here? Moreover, may I ask you if "gather" must mean "rapture"everywhere the word "gather" is used? May I also ask you to find the word church in this passage and for that matter, find it in the Book of Revelation, from chapter 4 to the end.
        You also go a great deal of trouble, in your video,  trying to prove that this is not the Jewish elect  but rather all the elect. Of course, your assumption neglects the fact that those in Judea who keep the Sabbath are addressed (see above). May I also point out that these elect are gathered from the four winds as opposed to being gathered from their graves. -- Herb Evans
        In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. -- SA
        I beg to differ with you. The two accounts are not the same.-- Herb Evans
        1 Thess 4:13 - 18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
        1. the trumpet sounds -- SA
        In Matthew, that is true, but in Thessalonians, it is not an angel trumping as in Matthew and Revelation but rather is the trump of God. Moreover, there is no shout or voice of an archangel in Matthew. -- Herb Evans
        2. Jesus comes in the clouds -- SA
        In Mathew, this is true, but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians; it says that we shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds and meet THE LORD IN THE AIR. -- Herb Evans
        3. the elect are gathered unto him -- SA
        To be sure, there is a gathering of these elect but not a rapture to heaven. But the coming in glory and power and Armageddon precedes this gathering
        Mat 24:27 - 28  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 
        After Armageddon and  the parables, we find the purpose of the Matt 24 gathering by reading  Matthew 25:31 - 46 where we find the judgment of the nations, namely the sheep and the goats.
        Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
        Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson
        It is not obvious to me what you have or do not have with the exception of what you posted, none of which establishes your post trib rapture idea. It does show that you are able to erroneously mix and mismatch passages that do not belong together. -- Herb Evans

 

Hi Herb,

You said:

“It seems that you think that Revelation is a serial only treatise and discount the possibility that there are overlapping parallel accounts in the seal, vial, and trumpet accounts.” – Herb Evans

You also said:

“Many pre tribs count the last seals as the end of the tribulation including myself. Further accounts of the tribulation under the vials and the trumpets are repeats with various other different events supplied. The ends of the seals, vials, and trumpets have similar events that we see as parallels and you see serially.” – Herb Evans

Here you have clearly said that you believe that the last seals (6 and 7) are the end of the tribulation. I agree. However, you have also said that the trumpets and vials are part of the tribulation and are happening in parallel with the seals. According to your model, the trumpets take place during the tribulation, and since the 6^th and 7^th seals are “after the tribulation” (Matt 24 & Mark 13) or “the end of the tribulation” as you have put it, then that would mean the trumpet judgments come before the 6^th and 7^th seals.

Let me demonstrate how ridiculous that belief is. First of all, in Revelation 8, it is made explicit that the trumpets follow the seals:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Revelation 8:² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Revelation 8:³ And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:⁴ And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Revelation 8:⁵ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:⁶ And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

How anyone could read these verses and believe that the trumpets come before the 7^th seal. Are you sure you would not like to rethink that?

Second of all, the 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads BETWEEN the opening of the 6^th and 7^th seals.  This seal in their foreheads is what protects them from the judgments of the 5^th trumpet. According to your model, the 5^th trumpet judgment takes place BEFORE the 6^th seal. How does that work?!

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (Between 6^th and 7^th seals)
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (5^th Trumpet)
Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that theory?
You also said:

“Bothe the rapture and second coming are “comings.”– Herb Evans

Okay, then that means that you must not know how to count. Let me help you:

Bethlehem’s manger – first coming

Rapture – second coming

You just said that the rapture was a “coming.” Is it Coming 1.5? Are you denying that he came the first time? How can you claim that the rapture is a “coming,” but that it is not the second coming? Is it the first coming? Is it the third coming? Anyone who can count should be able to figure out that according to 1 Thess 4:15, the rapture is the SECOND coming since it comes BEFORE Armageddon.

Herb, I'm sorry, but the pre-trib rapture is a joke.

 

Sincerely, 

Pastor Steven L Anderson 

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