Saturday, January 5, 2013

Herb Evans tries to challenge "After the Tribulation" Film

Here is a link to watch the film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmZHDb_sP8

Here is the exchange with Herb Evans: 

Hi Herb,

Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5.
1. the trumpet sounds
2. Jesus comes in the clouds
3. the elect are gathered unto him
Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31.
Sincerely,

Pastor Steven L Anderson

Steve, Thank you for your assumption that your proof texts prove the rapture to be post trib, which i do not find to be true. I have annotated emphacized each of your proof texts from my standpoint. -- Herb Evans
 
        On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:27 -0700 Steven Anderson <sanderson1611@gmail.com> writes:
Hi Herb,
        Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation: -- S.A.

        Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -- SA
        Your proof texts refers to the GREAT tribulation and is tied in with the abomination of desolation and concerns itself with the temple and those in Judea that observe the Sabbath day 24:16, 20, 21. There is nothing here that fixes the rapture of the church saints in this time frame. All you prove is that the GREAT tribulation happens here. -- Herb Evans
        Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: -- SA        Pre tribbers also believe that there are disturbances in the  sun, moon, and stars after the 3 1/2 year GREAT tribulation, namely, the second half of the seven year tribulation. Nothing is new here nor adds to or changes my view. Nothing here proves that the rapture of the church saints occurs in this time frame. -- Herb Evans
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -- SA        Post tribbers see the rapture and the coming in power and glory as one coming. Pre tribbers see the rapture as one coming in the clouds and another coming later in power and glory where Jesus touches down on the earth (Mount of Olives). You have not proved the one coming theory nor disproved the two coming claim in these verses. -- Herb Evans
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- SA
        In your video, you go to a great deal of trouble to prove where pre tribbers cannot find the word "tribulation." May I ask you where the word "rapture" is here? Moreover, may I ask you if "gather" must mean "rapture"everywhere the word "gather" is used? May I also ask you to find the word church in this passage and for that matter, find it in the Book of Revelation, from chapter 4 to the end.
       
You also go a great deal of trouble, in your video,  trying to prove that this is not the Jewish elect  but rather all the elect. Of course, your assumption neglects the fact that those in Judea who keep the Sabbath are addressed (see above). May I also point out that these elect are gathered from the four winds as opposed to being gathered from their graves. -- Herb Evans
       
In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. -- SA
        I beg to differ with you. The two accounts are not the same.-- Herb Evans
        1 Thess 4:13 - 18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 
 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
        1. the trumpet sounds -- SA
        In Matthew, that is true, but in Thessalonians, it is not an angel trumping as in Matthew and Revelation but rather is the trump of God. Moreover, there is no shout or voice of an archangel in Matthew. -- Herb Evans
       
2. Jesus comes in the clouds -- SA
        In Mathew, this is true, but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians; it says that we shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds and meet THE LORD IN THE AIR. -- Herb Evans
        3. the elect are gathered unto him -- SA
        To be sure, there is a gathering of these elect but not a rapture to heaven. But the coming in glory and power and Armageddon precedes this gathering
        Mat 24:27 - 28  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 
       
After Armageddon and  the parables, we find the purpose of the Matt 24 gathering by reading  Matthew 25:31 - 46 where we find the judgment of the nations, namely the sheep and the goats.
        Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
       
Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson
        It is not obvious to me what you have or do not have with the exception of what you posted, none of which establishes your post trib rapture idea. It does show that you are able to erroneously mix and mismatch passages that do not belong together. -- Herb Evans

Hi Herb,

I will address each of your paragraphs:

1a. Matthew 24:16 is giving specific instructions to them that will be in Judaea at that time. That is not to say that the entire chapter is written only to them which are in Judaea. "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" - Matt 24:16 The fact that he singles out those that be in Judaea in this verse proves that he is speaking to other people also in the rest of the chapter. Furthermore, the parallel passage in Mark 13 explicitly tells us who the chapter is written to:

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto ALL, Watch.
Why would God put this at the end of a chapter that is only written to the Jews?

1b. Matthew 24:20 is saying to pray that your flight be not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day since both of those conditions will make flight more difficult. This is simply because business shuts down on the sabbath day and fleeing to the mountains is more difficult in cold weather. He is not writing to people who observe the sabbath! He is not saying, "Pray that your flight is not on the sabbath day because then you will have to stop and rest to observe the sabbath." That would be ridiculous. He is saying that if you are in a part of the world where the sabbath is observed, it will make flight more difficult on that day.

2. You are claiming here that according to pre-tribbers the sun and moon will be darkened and that the stars will fall at the end of the 7 years. However, that does NOT line up with what the book of Revelation teaches. The Book of Revelation teaches that the sun and moon will be darkened at the opening of the sixth seal which is LONG before the end of the 7 years. According to my post-trib, pre-wrath view, the sun and moon are darkened after the tribulation (seals 1-6) but before God's wrath is poured out (God's wrath = 7 trumpets and 7 vials). I can easily demonstrate the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling after the seals but before the trumpets and vials. This proves that the trumpets and vials are NOT part of the tribulation since they come after the sun and moon are darkened which comes after the tribulation. Here are the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in Revelation:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
This is BEFORE the trumpets or vials. This is NOT at the end of the 7 years. Show me where these events happen at the end of the 7 years in Revelation.
3a. Coming in clouds = coming in glory. In the Bible, God's glory is represented by clouds MANY times. Read all of the following verses and then tell me that when he comes in the clouds he is not coming in glory:

  1. Exodus 16:10
    And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

  2. Exodus 24:16
    And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

  3. Exodus 40:34
    Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

  4. Exodus 40:35
    And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

  5. Numbers 16:42
    And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.

  6. 1 Kings 8:11
    So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

  7. 2 Chronicles 5:14
    So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

  8. Isaiah 4:5
    And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

  9. Ezekiel 1:28
    As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

  10. Ezekiel 10:4
    Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.

  11. Matthew 24:30

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  12. Mark 13:26
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

  13. Luke 21:27
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Give one shred of evidence that when he comes in the clouds, his glory will be absent.
3b. I don't believe in a "one coming theory." He comes in the clouds (post-trib, pre-wrath), then after the trumpets and vials he returns on a white horse in Revelation 19 where he actually touches down. Those are two separate events. Pre-tribbers claim that Matthew 24 is referring to the Revelation 19 horseback event. However, Rev 19 looks NOTHING like Matthew 24. Rev 19 has no clouds, no trumpet, and no elect gathered. 1 Thess 4 has all of the above because 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24 are dealing with the same event. That is why 1 Thess 5:2 links the timing of the rapture with the timing of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is characterized by the sun and moon being darkened. That puts Matthew 24 in perfect harmony with 1 Thess 4-5.

4a. I am not looking for the word "church" in this passage because I do not subscribe to the doctrine of a universal church.
4b. I did not "try" to prove that the term "elect" is not referring to the Jews in the film: I succeeded in proving that in the film. Every mention of "the elect" in the New Testament proves my point. "The elect" is referring to the saved every time it is used.
5a. You said, "...but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians." Yes, it does:
1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
There he said that he is COMING.
1 Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There it says that he is in the clouds. Therefore, he is coming in the clouds. Not that complicated.
5b. Your theory about the timing of the events of Matthew 24 corresponding to Armageddon and the end of the 7 years has already been proven completely false in point 2. 

Sincerely,
Pastor Steven L Anderson 



Hi Herb, I will address each of your paragraphs:
1a. Matthew 24:16 is giving specific instructions to them that will be in Judaea at that time. SA
Nice equivocation with no basis in fact or scripture. You are just saying something just to say something. Would you accept such an excuse put to your comments? – Herb Evans
That is not to say that the entire chapter is written only to them which are in Judaea. SA
Well, are we going to argue from silence now? – Herb Evans            "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" - Matt 24:16
The fact that he singles out those that be in Judaea in this verse proves that he is speaking to other people also in the rest of the chapter. SA
I am very interested in finding out your standard of proof for such a statement. Would you accept this reply as a reply to your comments? -- Herb Evans
Furthermore, the parallel passage in Mark 13 explicitly tells us who the chapter is written to:
                    Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto ALL, Watch. Why would God put this at the end of a chapter that is only written to the Jews? SA
            Parallel passage? Without parallel parables? Without parallel admonitions. Forgive me if I cannot accept your desperate mixing and matching unrelated to my challenges. Conveniently switching from Matthew to Mark will not get you off the hook here. Mark 13 admonishes all in every age to watch. Obviously, God meant for all to watch. – Herb Evans
1b. Matthew 24:20 is saying to pray that your flight be not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day since both of those conditions will make flight more difficult. This is simply because business shuts down on the sabbath day and fleeing to the mountains is more difficult in cold weather. He is not writing to people who observe the sabbath! He is not saying, "Pray that your flight is not on the sabbath day because then you will have to stop and rest to observe the sabbath." That would be ridiculous. He is saying that if you are in a part of the world where the sabbath is observed, it will make flight more difficult on that day.
The only thing that is ridiculous is someone trying to squirm out of the consequences of his own proof text with lame excuses like this. My emphasis was not on winter but on the Sabbath. Nevertheless, leaving without one’s clothes could be a consideration in winter. Whose business shuts down on the Sabbath day and why? You cannot bear to admit that these are Jews, can you? You also ignore the abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place. Could that be the Jewish temple? Will you continue this discussion making things up as you go? – Herb Evans
2. You are claiming here that according to pre-tribbers the sun and moon will be darkened and that the stars will fall at the end of the 7 years. JA
I am claiming that according to Matthew 25:29 and Mark 13:24 that the sun, moon, stars events occur immediately after the tribulation of those days.
Mar 13:24 – 27 But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. – Herb Evans
However, that does NOT line up with what the book of Revelation teaches. The Book of Revelation teaches that the sun and moon will be darkened at the opening of the sixth seal which is LONG before the end of the 7 years. SA
According to my post-trib, pre-wrath view, the sun and moon are darkened after the tribulation (seals 1-6) but before God's wrath is poured out (God's wrath = 7 trumpets and 7 vials). I can easily demonstrate the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling after the seals but before the trumpets and vials. This proves that the trumpets and vials are NOT part of the tribulation since they come after the sun and moon are darkened which comes after the tribulation. Here are the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in Revelation:
            Could it really be that it does not line up with what you teach that Revelation teaches? It seems that you think that Revelation is a serial only treatise and discount the possibility that there are overlapping parallel accounts in the seal, vial, and trumpet accounts. Arguing in a circle does not prove anything. – Herb Evans
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
This is BEFORE the trumpets or vials. This is NOT at the end of the 7 years. Show me where these events happen at the end of the 7 years in Revelation. SA
Many pre tribs count the last seals as the end of the tribulation including myself. Further accounts of the tribulation under the vials and the trumpets are repeats with various other different events supplied. The ends of the seals, vials, and trumpets have similar events that we see as parallels and you see serially. There is no common ground with my view and your dogmatic assertions. – Herb Evans
3a. Coming in clouds = coming in glory. In the Bible, God's glory is represented by clouds MANY times. Read all of the following verses and then tell me that when he comes in the clouds he is not coming in glory:
1.               Exodus 16:10
And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
2.               Exodus 24:16
And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
3.               Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
4.               Exodus 40:35
And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
5.               Numbers 16:42
And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.
6.               1 Kings 8:11
So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
7.               2 Chronicles 5:14
So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
8.               Isaiah 4:5
And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
9.               Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
10.            Ezekiel 10:4
Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.
11.            Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
12.            Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
13.            Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Give one shred of evidence that when he comes in the clouds, his glory will be absent.
I am amazed at your dogmatic interpretation by terminology association. Why anyone takes you seriously is equally amazing.  There is no power and great glory in 1 Thess 4. And He does not come in the clouds in 1 Thess 4. We are caught up with Him in the clouds there. Clearly, you use similarities of terminology to piece together and force your misapplied theories. Luke 21:27 is a snare and not a rapture (21:35). It is also judgment (stand before the Son of man - 21:36). Matt 24:30 hardly has the saved in mind in those that mourn. -- Herb Evans
3b. I don't believe in a "one coming theory." He comes in the clouds (post-trib, pre-wrath), then after the trumpets and vials he returns on a white horse in Revelation 19 where he actually touches down. Those are two separate events.
Well, let me correct it and say that you believe in a simultaneous combined rapture and coming in power and glory, whereas I believe in a separate rapture separate from the coming in power and glory. – Herb Evans
Pre-tribbers claim that Matthew 24 is referring to the Revelation 19 horseback event. However, Rev 19 looks NOTHING like Matthew 24. Rev 19 has no clouds, no trumpet, and no elect gathered.
Well, sure, I also claim that. He come back to make war in Revelation 19 AFTER the wedding and the marriage supper of the lamb 19:7, 8. Horseback war and catching folks up in a cloud do not have much in common. Why mix different events of the same event as one identical event.
Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
1 Thess 4 has all of the above because 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24 are dealing with the same event.
You saying it does not make it so. – Herb Evans
That is why 1 Thess 5:2 links the timing of the rapture with the timing of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is characterized by the sun and moon being darkened. That puts Matthew 24 in perfect harmony with 1 Thess 4-5.
1 Thess 5 is in perfect harmony with Matt 24’s power and glory but is not in harmony with 1 Thess 4. In 1 Thess 4 there is an consolation and comfort. 1 Thess 5 is a warning of punishment. – Herb Evans
4a. I am not looking for the word "church" in this passage because I do not subscribe to the doctrine of a universal church.
I am a local church only and do not believe in any universal church, nevertheless I do not believe the church, whatever your theory, goes through any part of the tribulation. I support this by the fact that the word “CHURCH” is not used in the context of the tribulation in Matthew 24 or Rev 4 to the end. However, Israel in Matthew 24 and Revelation 4 to the end is used in the context of the tribulation. – Herb Evans

4b. I did not "try" to prove that the term "elect" is not referring to the Jews in the film: I succeeded in proving that in the film. Every mention of "the elect" in the New Testament proves my point. "The elect" is referring to the saved every time it is used.
Perhaps, I misinterpreted what you said. Still, there is a difference with elect Israel, elect Jesus, and the elect saved. You are not clear as to who specifically is referred to in Matt 24; so tell us, are those in Judea Jews or Gentiles? – Herb Evans5a. You said, "...but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians." Yes, it does: SA
No it doesn’t, unless you piece together the phrases to fit your erroneous view. – Herb Evans
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. There he said that he is COMING. SA
No, it says that we which are alive unto the coming of the Lord. Bothe the rapture and second coming are “comings.”– Herb Evans
1 Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There it says that he is in the clouds. Therefore, he is coming in the clouds. Not that complicated. SA
No! It says we shall be caught up with the others resurrected to meet the Lord in the air and not the clouds. You’re mixing and matching phrases and piecing them together to arrive at your manipulated outcome is a worst case Bible exegesis that is really an eisegesis. – Herb Evans
5b. Your theory about the timing of the events of Matthew 24 corresponding to Armageddon and the end of the 7 years has already been proven completely false in point 2. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson
Since you do not elaborate how, I cannot dignify your charge with a response. Nevertheless, all you have been giving me is doctrine by inference and innuendo. – Herb Evans
___________________________________________________________________________
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 4:04 PM, <herbevans@juno.com> wrote:
        Steve, Thank you for your assumption that your proof texts prove the rapture to be post trib, which i do not find to be true. I have annotated emphacized each of your proof texts from my standpoint. -- Herb Evans
        On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:15:27 -0700 Steven Anderson writes:
Hi Herb,
        Here are the scriptures that prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation: -- S.A.

        Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -- SA
        Your proof texts refers to the GREAT tribulation and is tied in with the abomination of desolation and concerns itself with the temple and those in Judea that observe the Sabbath day 24:16, 20, 21. There is nothing here that fixes the rapture of the church saints in this time frame. All you prove is that the GREAT tribulation happens here. -- Herb Evans
        Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: -- SA        Pre tribbers also believe that there are disturbances in the  sun, moon, and stars after the 3 1/2 year GREAT tribulation, namely, the second half of the seven year tribulation. Nothing is new here nor adds to or changes my view. Nothing here proves that the rapture of the church saints occurs in this time frame. -- Herb Evans
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -- SA        Post tribbers see the rapture and the coming in power and glory as one coming. Pre tribbers see the rapture as one coming in the clouds and another coming later in power and glory where Jesus touches down on the earth (Mount of Olives). You have not proved the one coming theory nor disproved the two coming claim in these verses. -- Herb Evans
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -- SA
        In your video, you go to a great deal of trouble to prove where pre tribbers cannot find the word "tribulation." May I ask you where the word "rapture" is here? Moreover, may I ask you if "gather" must mean "rapture"everywhere the word "gather" is used? May I also ask you to find the word church in this passage and for that matter, find it in the Book of Revelation, from chapter 4 to the end.
       
You also go a great deal of trouble, in your video,  trying to prove that this is not the Jewish elect  but rather all the elect. Of course, your assumption neglects the fact that those in Judea who keep the Sabbath are addressed (see above). May I also point out that these elect are gathered from the four winds as opposed to being gathered from their graves. -- Herb Evans
       
In these scriptures, the events of the rapture are described just as they are in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. -- SA
        I beg to differ with you. The two accounts are not the same.-- Herb Evans
        1 Thess 4:13 - 18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 
 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
        1. the trumpet sounds -- SA
        In Matthew, that is true, but in Thessalonians, it is not an angel trumping as in Matthew and Revelation but rather is the trump of God. Moreover, there is no shout or voice of an archangel in Matthew. -- Herb Evans
       
2. Jesus comes in the clouds -- SA
        In Mathew, this is true, but it does not say Jesus comes with clouds in Thessalonians; it says that we shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds and meet THE LORD IN THE AIR. -- Herb Evans
        3. the elect are gathered unto him -- SA
        To be sure, there is a gathering of these elect but not a rapture to heaven. But the coming in glory and power and Armageddon precedes this gathering
        Mat 24:27 - 28  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 
       
After Armageddon and  the parables, we find the purpose of the Matt 24 gathering by reading  Matthew 25:31 - 46 where we find the judgment of the nations, namely the sheep and the goats.
        Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
       
Obviously, I have many other scriptures to prove the post-tribulational, pre-wrath rapture, but let's stick with one at a time. Matthew 24:21, 29-31. Sincerely, Pastor Steven L Anderson
        It is not obvious to me what you have or do not have with the exception of what you posted, none of which establishes your post trib rapture idea. It does show that you are able to erroneously mix and mismatch passages that do not belong together. -- Herb Evans
 
Hi Herb,

You said:

“It seems that you think that Revelation is a serial only treatise and discount the possibility that there are overlapping parallel accounts in the seal, vial, and trumpet accounts.” – Herb Evans

You also said:

“Many pre tribs count the last seals as the end of the tribulation including myself. Further accounts of the tribulation under the vials and the trumpets are repeats with various other different events supplied. The ends of the seals, vials, and trumpets have similar events that we see as parallels and you see serially.” – Herb Evans

Here you have clearly said that you believe that the last seals (6 and 7) are the end of the tribulation. I agree. However, you have also said that the trumpets and vials are part of the tribulation and are happening in parallel with the seals. According to your model, the trumpets take place during the tribulation, and since the 6th and 7th seals are “after the tribulation” (Matt 24 & Mark 13) or “the end of the tribulation” as you have put it, then that would mean the trumpet judgments come before the 6th and 7th seals.

Let me demonstrate how ridiculous that belief is. First of all, in Revelation 8, it is made explicit that the trumpets follow the seals:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Revelation 8:And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Revelation 8:And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Revelation 8:And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Revelation 8:And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
How anyone could read these verses and believe that the trumpets come before the 7th seal. Are you sure you would not like to rethink that?

Second of all, the 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads BETWEEN the opening of the 6th and 7th seals.  This seal in their foreheads is what protects them from the judgments of the 5th trumpet. According to your model, the 5th trumpet judgment takes place BEFORE the 6th seal. How does that work?!

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. (Between 6th and 7th seals)
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (5th Trumpet)
Are you sure you don’t want to rethink that theory?
You also said:
Bothe the rapture and second coming are “comings.”– Herb Evans

Okay, then that means that you must not know how to count. Let me help you:

Bethlehem’s manger – first coming
Rapture – second coming

You just said that the rapture was a “coming.” Is it Coming 1.5? Are you denying that he came the first time? How can you claim that the rapture is a “coming,” but that it is not the second coming? Is it the first coming? Is it the third coming? Anyone who can count should be able to figure out that according to 1 Thess 4:15, the rapture is the SECOND coming since it comes BEFORE Armageddon.

Herb, I'm sorry, but the pre-trib rapture is a joke.
 
Sincerely, 
Pastor Steven L Anderson 

8 comments:

Karen R. said...

Wow, Herb's explanations are SO CONFUSING they gave me a headache trying to understand it..so glad God is NOT the author of confusion. Clearly Satan is behind Bible Colleges and using it as a tool to cement this false doctrine in people and teaching them how to defend it in a way no one can even wrap their heads around it.

Nina Williamson said...

I agree with Karen. It was very difficult to understand what he was even implying...and that right there tells us he is wrong.

Rob Madden said...

Funny Karen, I thought that Bro Anderson's were confusing! Herb's answers were straight forward and Scriptural. Beware when a pastor condemns all Bible colleges and bible teachers as false. And that only he and a few others have the real truth. That's what a cult is! Run girl, run!

Anonymous said...

Herb is ignorant nothing more.
Its sad ..but you cant change his foolish mind. Thanks Pastor for Trying ..i could see you put your heart into it.

if anything this will help people see the stupidity from the mouth/voice of the ignorant.

bible clearly teaches dont be ignorant

Eric Ennis said...

Rob, I have never heard pastor Anderson say or even imply that only he and a few others have the truth. On the contrary, pastor Anderson on numerous occasions emphasizes reading the Bible cover to cover, multiple times, with only yourself and the Holy Spirit to teach you. Bible Colleges, falsely so called, are the institutions that supply and suggest the earning of a piece of paper from them proves you are knowledgeable of the Bible and somehow the only respectful qualified teacher of God's Word; not only is that unscriptural but also fits the description of a cult.

Anonymous said...

What I've found is that some pre-trib people argue the same way athiests do. They can't see the truth even when it's right in front of them! Almost wonder if people like that are saved. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
1 Cor. 2:14

Imdb Truth said...

They hate us Pastor Anderson! They only want to hear the watered-down version of God's word... They want to believe that we can love the world and love God, but that is impossible... I love you Steven! Thank you for helping me understand God's word...

michelle Anderson said...

My pastor loves the Lord but he is also confused by prophesy. Pastor Anderson, it would be great if you would do a sermon on Ezekiel 38 and how that aligns with other prophesy. Maybe you have, but I can't find it if so. I am trying to have a dialogue with my pastor on the rapture issue but I can't shake the feeling that I am disrespecting him. I love him and don't want contention but I also want to help correct him on this. Any suggestions?